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*** Log file opened: 7/23/97 13:56:57 QuietWaters> S'okay, Ravendancer...it's a very condensed version of the Burning Times...witch hunts. QuietWaters> Moonleaf started with this lesson, and it turned out to be a good start. I decided to go with it because it is a good lesson about tolerance. AngelWings> hmmm methinks we may have to start emailing the lessons to Raven so that they can be read ahead of time QuietWaters> That can be done... :) QuietWaters> There were some questions to answer...so let's go ahead and start with the first one: How does this make you feel? QuietWaters> It made me angry at first...then sad. I think it shows what can happen when prejudice, hate, fear, etc. are allowed to rule. SE4SD> ok Firedancer first QuietWaters> I'm not sure we learned our lesson from that...look at the holocaust. Even today there are many examples of intolerance. QuietWaters> Ok..Firedancer... Firedancer> It made me sad. Firedancer> It didn't make me feel persecuted as a witch. Firedancer> The horror of realizing what base meaness/evil that humanity can have towards one another...all in the name of self-advacement, if you will. Yahmdallah> I think that kind of thing is evil and reprehensible...but I also don't like this current fashion of blaming groups for things that happened in the distant past, like the burning times, or slavery. You have to move on and make sure you do what you can to prevent it in YOUR time. Firedancer> Yahm...it's still happening today in countries all over the world. Ravendancer> well said Yahm QuietWaters> Agreed Yahm...but you know what they say about those who forget history... Firedancer> Just two months ago, in a Russian country. Firedancer> And just a few weeks ago in Africa and South America. Yahmdallah> yes, that's why you have to work to prevent it where you can. I can't stop it in russia, but I can stop it in colorado is my point Firedancer> Men who had failures in one way or another blamed the village "witch", and they were burned, beaten, killed. QuietWaters> Not all of those persecuted/executed were even witches. SE4SD..your turn... Firedancer> What I got out of studying the burning thems is that mankind has a tendency to blame everyone but themselves for their failures and shortcomings. mh> scapegoating is a common political diversionary tactic SE4SD> 1. This information is not new to me and it has always sadden me to know that ignorance and fear cause people to do unthinkable things. Many of the women tortured to death were merely practicing what is now referred to as homeopathic medicine. If breaks my heart to know that my ancestors were treated so brutally. Firedancer> That's it exactly...and it's easy for a suppressed or repressed society to fall into line behind violence in order to solve a problem. QuietWaters> mh...your turn :) Ravendancer> destroy what you don't understand or don't want to understand mh> I felt outraged, but realized that this has happened and will happen as long as people need scapegoats mh> And minority groups are targets for scapegoats and unfortunately will continue to be Firedancer> how can you categorize those burned in the past as a minority group...they were not open and few numbers it seemed to be a political movement to me AngelWings> a minority is any group of ppl outnumbered by the vas majority Dancer Firedancer> the keyword being group mh> I suppose I haven't formulated a definition of minority group, I suppose that I meant it to be a group of individuals who have less power than the rulers Firedancer> there would have been no innocent people burned if there was an "open group" or a recognized minority group mh> This was a "group" in that there was more than one person persecuted AngelWings> just becouse it's not open or "recognized" doesn't mean they're no a minority QuietWaters> ok, AW...go for it..your turn . mh> maybe a group that does not have organized power? AngelWings> well, I was outraged about the whole thing, horrible acts done in the name of God AngelWings> not the kind of god I would want to be assosciated with AngelWings> and I just had to ask myself, when it would end for the persecution continues everwhere towards all ppl AngelWings> not just pagans, wiccan, etc QuietWaters> Good point, AW.... QuietWaters> Lisa...your turn... _Lisa_> made me kinda angry.. like qw said.. we didn't learn much of a lesson because a couple of 100 years later it happens again with the holocast and i think thats puthetic on are part.. well not ARE part but the ppl who had to do with it.. and pathetic it even happend!! QuietWaters> Yup...pathetic is right, Lisa.. Ravendancer> agreed Lisa Ravendancer> even w/out reading the lesson [thanks to a psychotic machine]... Ravendancer> I can say that it makes me sad to see the ignorance Ravendancer> Ra once told me that the Universe was perfect...and I have to trust that... Ravendancer> that maybe somewhere in there...bad karma or something... Ravendancer> made those things happen Ravendancer> or that a lesson was learned from it all Ravendancer> maybe not consciously, but spiritually Ravendancer> and certainly WE can learn a lesson from it Ravendancer> it's the same with the holycaust QuietWaters> Very interesting take on it, Ravendancer. mh> well said, ravendancer QuietWaters> We've sort of answered the rest of the questions in a freeform kind of way...but I'll throw them out there and ya'all answer as you want. QuietWaters> Go ahead, AW. AngelWings> well, I just wanted to add to that AngelWings> I think all things happen for a reason, so there must've been a reason, good or bad, for those horrible things to happen AngelWings> end I just hope the reason for it..or the lesson...will be learned eventually. mh> The reason for these events is beyond my comprehension QuietWaters> Mine, too, mh...I meant I hope folks learn from it. QuietWaters> (I worded that poorly) QuietWaters> The next question is: What other examples of this sort of persecution are there? SE4SD> 2. There are many other examples of this sort of persecution: Jews, women (just because they are women), Native Americans, blacks, anyone that is considered "different" and the list could go on and on. It seems that anyone that ventures from the "normal" suffers at the hands those who think there way is the only way. QuietWaters: OPS: Tell Stardancer I like her answers :) Ravendancer> I find it interesting........ mh> Armenian Massacre, Holocaust, Khmer Rouge. One of the most horrifying pictures I ever saw were pictures published in the paper. The Khmer Rouge used to beat their victims and then photograph them right before they were going to kill them. There was a picture of a woman holding a sleeping infant. She had a look of exhaustion, hopelessness, despair. I wanted to take that picture to a healing ceremony that night. mh> I wondered what they did with the infant. mh> How could people be so cruel? AngelWings> I shudder to think what they did Ravendancer> because they think they're doing the right thing mh> I thought that I wanted to do a healing for those two mh> I was going to a circle that night mh> maybe a healing for my horror AngelWings> indeed QuietWaters> Anyone else want to answer that? AngelWings> however, I think it is important to feel that horror, to feel that pain AngelWings> to never forget it QuietWaters> I agree... mh> Most of these people were just innocent peasants mh> just like the burning times Ravendancer> perhaps that horror.... Ravendancer> is what is necessary for us to learn OUR lesson. Ravendancer> or to send our energy toward those who suffered QuietWaters> Perhaps, Ravendancer... QuietWaters> Should we move on to the next question? (sorry...got distracted a moment) AngelWings> I think so QuietWaters> Go ahead, RD... Ravendancer> think back to things you might have heard back in the riotiing days... Ravendancer> 'Go back to where you came from' Ravendancer> etc. Ravendancer> I find this interesting because... Ravendancer> the shouters are not from there any more than those they shouted at. Ravendancer> might as well tell them to go back to England and Germany and wherever Ravendancer> I can't believe I'm the first one to consider that. QuietWaters> I agree, Ravendancer. AngelWings> and you are not the first, I have often wondered the same Ravendancer steps down off the soapbox QuietWaters> Again, we've pretty much answered the next questions. If anyone has prepared answers for the next 4 questions...go for it. SE4SD> 3. I really feel that Wiccans today are treated more leery or most people just think we are a bit "nuts". I personally have had no bad encounters or repercussions from my practices. Alot of people still believe that Wicca is Satan worship and I think there could be more done to take away this image. AngelWings> but what is also interesting to note QuietWaters> I very much agree with that, SE4SD...especially the last part. Wicca is not Satanic worship, nor do we sacrifice animals or people or anything... QuietWaters> Ravendancer...since you couldn't read the page, the question was: How are Wiccans treated today? AngelWings> and I must admit, before I learned anything about pagans, I thought the same way, that it was Satanic Ravendancer> I agree with AW... Ravendancer> as a kid I was around wiccans/pagans Ravendancer> of course I was brought up Protestant, and I was little, so I thought they were evil people AngelWings> I had never been around pagans, or knew of anyone who was mh> My mother thought pagans were evil Ravendancer> and of course the biggest problem is misinformation...propaganda mh> That was sort of synonomous with evil QuietWaters> My father thought the same, mh. He even burned some Tarot cards I had...said they were the devil's work. Ravendancer> mother believes Ouija boards are evil...she won't allow them in house mh has to leave for another committment :( AngelWings> I think the problem also stems from that Wiccan and/or Pagan, is not an open organization, like, for example, Christianity or even Buddhism Ravendancer> I played with one once and only once mh> will the next lesson be posted? QuietWaters> Yes, mh...tomorrow. QuietWaters> Ok..next question is: Why did this happen? Ravendancer> mm Merina SE4SD> 4. I think the burning Times were brought about by the ignorance of the people that only thought their puritan ways were the only way to live. Those people called Native Americans savages because of the way they lived and for the Wiccan sake, no one should be able to mix a concoction that would soothe and aching stomach or headache other than a God fearing Christian doctor! Fear of those persecuted for such things was a great factor in their madness. I still wonder how they could SE4SD> justify their actions when what they were doing was so much worse than any of the "crimes" the ones being persecuted could ever have done. Geez, let me move on. Merina> mm raven dancer Ravendancer> very well said SE4SD QuietWaters> Yup..it was SE4SD. AngelWings> agreed SE4SD Ravendancer> and of course they had originally run to America to escape persecution themselves...how ironic. >:( AngelWings> indeed raven QuietWaters> Anyone else want to add to that? Lisa?? _Lisa_> hehe Naahh it was all said.. QuietWaters> I don't want to rush ya'all along...so...if you have something to say, just go for it. :) AngelWings> the thing is, like the Salem witch hunts, that part of our history doesn't seem to bring shame to the American people AngelWings> has anyone else noticed that? AngelWings> it should, but it doesn't Merina> Ummm... I beg to differ QuietWaters> Go ahead, Merina... Merina> well, I mean, there are some Americans who actually realize the error of their ancestors' ways... Such as I, and many others. AngelWings> true Merina, but I meant the American public in general Ravendancer> because this is still a touchy subject Merina> It depends on the perspective you're looking at it from. Ravendancer> there are still too many who think that witches are necessarily evil and need to be run out of town Ravendancer> as I'm sure we're all aware of QuietWaters> Not that this excuses it, but perhaps it's because the Salem witch hunts were small in comparison to other things done in this country. Merina> I myelf was taught in school to be ashamed and weirded out by the stuff that happened. Ravendancer> persecution in general is to be ashamed of Quietwaters I was, too, Merina...and the memorial they have in Salem is very moving. Merina> of course _Lisa_> Why should we be ashamed if we didnt have anything to do with it? Ravendancer> WE should not. QuietWaters> Good point, Lisa... Ravendancer> but we should keep that in mind when we read the news reports and see we didn't do anything to prevent it happening Ravendancer> generally speaking QuietWaters> Very well said, RD. Merina> but it's human nature to realize the error of someone else's ways... I mean, it's good to feel empathy for someone, even if we had nothing to do with it Ravendancer> true Merina Merina> so maybe we shouldn't be ashamed, like lisa said, but we should try to feel empathy and try to understand what went on and why it shouldn't ever happen again. QuietWaters> Next question was: Why is the knowledge of these times important to modern Wiccans? SE4SD> 5. Oh, I think this knowledge is very important to us now because there are still injustices we battle. Parents/grandparents trying to take children away from wiccan parents just because they are not of the "Christian" faith. We have to be aware that there are still people that do not have open minds enough to accept our thoughts and practices. And I don't know about anyone else, but knowing the horrible things our ancestors went thorough only makes me stronger in the faith of what I believe. Ravendancer> 'nuff said QuietWaters> lol, RD...agreed. QuietWaters> Next question: Do you feel any differently after reading this? (Or is you were aware of it before, how did you feel after you were made aware?) SE4SD> 6. As mentioned, I already knew of these things and I still find it so very hurtful to imagine the terrible injustice done to so many innocent people. QuietWaters> I thought it a redundant question, too...anyone else have anything to add? Ravendancer> not I, said the Raven Merina> doesn't #5 apply to about everything in life?... I mean, nobody's perfect.... QuietWaters> It does, Merina...these questions were worded for a wicca class. Merina> yeah.. but I'm just pointing out QuietWaters> Good point. :) Merina> forgive my ignorance Ravendancer> :) QuietWaters> Nothing to forgive, Merina..just explaining why it was worded that way. Merina> ok QuietWaters> Did anyone research something from the Burning Times? AngelWings> sigh, so did I miss the rest QuietWaters> No, AW... QuietWaters> I'll take that as a no.... AngelWings> oh uh, no I didn't SevenEagle knows Stardancer did something with that, did not write anything on it though _Lisa_> not really qw.. QuietWaters> Firedancer has a letter to share, but we'll move on til she gets back. QuietWaters> The first exercise...did anyone do that? QuietWaters> Ok, Lisa...I know you did...lol. _Lisa_> I talked to a rock that count? _Lisa_> hehe yeah QuietWaters> The reason I put that exercise in is this... QuietWaters> Wiccan rituals (as well as others) are based on nature. QuietWaters> The four elements -- earth, air, fire and water -- have been used throughout history to invoke blessing. QuietWaters> So much of our lives and work are based on nature. QuietWaters> We cannot live apart from the Earth.... QuietWaters> In order to do Wiccan ritual, you need to be able to connect in some way...with the spirit of nature. QuietWaters> I'm finished...anyone want to add to that? QuietWaters> Ok...this exercise was for beginners...and quite a few of us do that sort of thing all the time. QuietWaters> The rest of what I have is also for beginners...don't know whether to bother with it or not. :) AngelWings> cept for Lisa, maybe, who communes with rocks =) QuietWaters> lol, AW... SevenEagle> continue QW :-) Ravendancer> :) hey I commune with rocks _Lisa_> :) QuietWaters> So do I, RD. AngelWings> hmmm I have never talked to a rock before AngelWings> why would I want to anyways QuietWaters Ok...I wanted to talk about tools of learning. I took some of this from Scott Cunningham's book (Living Wicca). AngelWings> rather talk to trees and plants QuietWaters> You can learn a lot from a rock, AW...and trees and plants...hehehe. QuietWaters> If nothing else, a rock will teach you how to be. AngelWings> oh yes, I know that QW, but not from talking to it AngelWings> in my opinion anyways SevenEagle> yes, by talking with the rock :-) QuietWaters> lol...I didn't mean literally... QuietWaters> Members of covens have access to teachers. When you're learning on your own, there are 4 things to help you in your studies. QuietWaters> There's no one exact method of casting a circle; of saying a prayer; of invoking the God/dess. AngelWings> joking aside, IRC and the internet are very effective for study QuietWaters> I agree, AW. DancerAway is now known as Firedancer SevenEagle> the only method should be what your heart tells you QuietWaters> Each solitary finds their own way. AngelWings> is what helped me along when I lost my mentor =) QuietWaters> Getting to that, Eagle...lol QuietWaters> Be creative and perform your prayers and rituals from the heart. :) QuietWaters> Books are a great tool for study. However, you need to listen to your instincts. If it doesn't sound right to you, don't use it. Firedancer> okay...what question are we on? AngelWings> that initself can be a very scary proposition QuietWaters> We finished, FD....do you have that letter? Firedancer> oooh...knew I forgot to do something! Firedancer> wait...I have it right here...I can type it up quickly QuietWaters hits Firedancer over the head with her broom...not too hard... Ravendancer> alas, my dear gentles, I must fly... :( Firedancer> please not to hard...I'm in serious pain after today's dr. visit Firedancer> do you want me to type this up quickly? or maybe I can send it to be attached with the logs online? QuietWaters> Either way, FD. SevenEagle> go ahead and put it in the channel :-) Firedancer> okay... Firedancer> it's kind of long, so bear with the typos Firedancer> first: This is taken from European Witchcraft by E. William Monter, Department of History, Northwestern University, Joh Wiley & Sons, Inc (p. 85) Firedancer> Firedancer> This is in many ways an unusual trial for witchcraft. The time and place are typical enough-- Firedancer> the episcopal city of Bamberg in Franconia during the Thirty Years' War. Firedancer But the victim in this case was an extremely prominent person, the former burgomaster of the city. Firedancer> (my note...burgomaster is like the mayor) Firedancer> Very seldom did a witchcraft trial reach so highly placed a person, although perhaps a dozen cases Firedancer> of even more prominent victims could be cited. Firedancer> Second, what makes the trial of burgomaster Julian truly unique in the annals of witchcraft is his secret letter to his daughter composed during his trial, and printed here. Firedancer> "Many hundred thousand good-nights, dearly beloved daughter Veronica. Firedancer> Innocent have I come into prison, innocent have I been tortured, innocent must I die . Firedancer> For whoever comes into the witch prison must become a witch or be tortured until he invents something out of his head and-God pity him-bethinks him of something. Firedancer> I will tell you how it has gone with me. Firedancer> When I was the first time put to the torture, Dr. Braun, Dr. Kotzendorffer, and two strange doctors were there. Firedancer> Then Dr. Braun, asks me, 'Kinsman, how come you here?' Firedancer> I answer, 'Through falsehood, through misfortune.' Firedancer> 'Hear, you,' he says, 'you are a witch; will you confess it voluntarily? Firedancer> If not, we'll bring in witnesses and the executioner for you.' Firedancer> I said, 'I am no witch, I have a pure conscience in the matter; if there are a thousand witnessses, I am not anxious, but I'll gladly hear the witnesses.' Firedancer> Now the chancellor's son was set before me ... and afterward Hoppfen Elss. She had seen me dance on Haupts-moor ... I answered: 'I have never renounced God, and will never do it-God graciously keep me from it. Firedancer> I'll rather bear whatever I must.') Firedancer> And then came also-God in highest Heaven have mercy-the executioner, and put the thumb-screws on me, Firedancer> both hands bound together, so that the blood ran out at the nails and everywhere, so that for four weeks I could not use my hands, Firedancer> as you can see from the writing ... Firedancer> Thereafter they first stripped me, bound my hands behind me, and drew me up in the torture. Firedancer> Then I thought heaven and earth were at an end; eight times did they draw me up and let me fall again, so that I suffered terrible agaon ... (agony) Firedancer> And this happened on Friday, June 30, and with God's help I had to bear the torture. Firedancer> 'Sir, I beg you, for God's sake confess something, for you cannot endure the torture which you will be upt to; Firedancer> an d even if you bear it all, yet you will not escape, not even if you were an earl, but one torture will follow after another until you say you are a witch. Firedancer> ot before that,' he said, 'will they let you go, as you may see by all th eir trials, for one is just like another." ... Firedancer> And so I begged, since I was in a wretched plight, to be given one day for thought and a priest. Firedancer> The priest was refused me, but the time for thought was given. Firedancer> Now, my dear child, see what hazard I stood and still stand. Firedancer> I must say that I am a witch, thought I am not-must now renounce God, though I have never done it before. Firedancer> Day and night I was deeply troubled, but a last (sic) there came to me a new idea. Firedancer> I would not be anxious, but, since I had been given no priest with whom I could take counsel, I could myself think of something and say it. Firedancer> It were surely better that I just say it with mouth and words, even thought I had not really done it; and afterwards I would confess it to the priest, Firedancer> and let those answer for it who compel me to do it. ... Firedancer> And so I made my confession, as follows; but it was all a lie. Firedancer Now follows, dear child, what I confessed in order to escape the great anguish and bitter torture, which it was impossible for me longer to bear. Firedancer> Then I had to tell what people I had seen (at the witch-sabbath). Firedancer> I said that I had no recognized them . Firedancer> 'You old rascale, I must set the execution at you. Say-was not the chancellor there?' Firedancer> So I said yes. Firedancer> 'Who besides?' Firedancer> I had not recognized anybody. So he said: Firedancer> 'Take one street after another; begin at the market, go out on one street and back on the next.' Firedancer> I had to name several persons there. Then came the long street. Firedancer> I knew nobody. Firedancer> Had to name eight persons there. Firedancer> Then the Zinkenwert-one person more. Firedancer> Then over the upper bridge to the Georgthor, on both sides. Firedancer> Knew nobody again. Firedancer> Did I know nobody in the castle-whoever it might be, I should speak without fear. Firedancer> And thus continuously they asked me on all the streets, though I could not and would not say more. Firedancer> So they gave me to the executioner, told him to strip me, shave me all over (my note: done with a red-hot knife...forget the term for this), and put me to the torture. Firedancer> The rascal knows one on the market-place, is with him daily, and yet won't know him.' Firedancer> By that they meant Dietmery: so I had to name him too. Firedancer> Then I had to tell what crimes I had committed. I said nothing. Firedancer> ...'Draw the rascale up!' Firedancer> So I said that I was to kill my children, but I had killed a horse instead. Firedancer> It did not help. Firedancer> I had also taken a sacred wafer, and had desecrated it. Firedancer> When I had said this, they left me in peace. Firedancer> Now dear child, here you have all my confession, for which I must die. Firedancer> And they are sheer lies and made-up things, so help me God. Firedancer> For all this I was forced to say through fear of the torture which was threatened beyond what I had already endured. Firedancer> For they never leave off with the torture till one confesses something; Firedancer> be he never so good, he must be a witch. Firedancer> Nobody escapes, though he were an earl. ... Firedancer> Dear child, keep this letter secret so that people do not find it, else I shall be tortured most piteously and the jailers will be beheaded. Firedancer> So strictly is it forbidden. ...Dear child, pay this man a dollar. ...I have taken several days to write this: my hands are both lame. Firedancer> I am in Firedancer> Good night, for your father Johannes Junius will never see you more. Firedancer> July 24, 1628. Firedancer> (And on the margin of the letter he added:) Firedancer> Dear child, six have confessed against me at once: the chancellor, his son, Neudecker, Zaner, Hoffmaisters Ursel, and Hoppfen Else- Firedancer> all false, through compulsion, as they have all told me, and begged my forgiveness in God's name before they were executed. Firedancer> ...They know nothing but good of me. Firedancer> They were forced to say it, just as I myself was. Firedancer> QuietWaters> Thank you, Firedancer... Firedancer> Welcome...it makes me sickened and sad every time I read it. QuietWaters> Me, too :( Firedancer> This is what happened in this area of the world... AngelWings> ='( Firedancer> If I only spoke/read German...there are many documents of "witch trials" in Germany. QuietWaters> On that sad note...maybe we should wrap this up for now. AngelWings> Thank you for your lesson QW SevenEagle> yes :-) QuietWaters> 'welcome AngelWings> when will the next one be? QuietWaters> The next one will be at the same time next week...same channel. AngelWings> all righty then Firedancer> :) QuietWaters> Should be a bit shorter...lol. Firedancer> Thank you, QW QuietWaters> You're welcome *** Log file closed: 7/23/97 16:08:02 |