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*** Log file opened: 7/30/97 1:57:43 PM
Firedancer rotflol...okay everyone...time to close eyes and take 3 deep breaths Sliver Makes me wish I had brought a bean-bag chair! Firedancer candles for learning...celebrating the Lord and the Lady have been lit Yahmdallah can't sit still to save my life...I know I'm gonna git the ritilin call on all my kids Doom [Samatha@dialup18.isgroup.net] has joined #afterfive Yahmdallah --- shuts up Sliver MM Doom AngelWings closes eyes and takes 3 deep breaths AngelWings MM Doom Firedancer MM, Doom :) _Lisa_ MM doom Sliver beathes deeply 3 times Doom hi AngelWings 3 Well, 4 hi 5 to 6 you 7 too, 10 Doom Firedancer: OPS: omo...do you have a popup fixed yet? please onmyown CLASS IS IN SESSION, PLEASE DO NOT INTERRUPT. Goodguy goles a FD, then sits back to learn Firedancer GREAT! Goodguy ogles even Firedancer loves her friends :) Sliver . Firedancer Okay, has everyone read the lessons posted? Moonlily Yes, mam AngelWings nods SevenStar yea _Lisa_ yup Goodguy confeses he has not..did not know there was homework Fog [~tastymors@dialup16.hi-line.net] has joined #afterfive Firedancer MM, Fog Goodguy MM Fog _Lisa_ MM fog Fog WW FireDancer!! Fog WW -Lisa_ Firedancer: OPS: omo...you have a popup for the class urls? onmyown http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8015 onmyown http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7043/class.html AngelWings says 4Welcome 13 Fog Fog I am dyslexic and like wild women onmyown have all lessons for future reference Sliver . SevenStar Fog we are starting the class, comments should be held unless they are about the class Firedancer raps the monitor...class is in session! Fog k Goodguy hey you guys have to email me schedule Goodguy I cant remember all that stuff AngelWings schedule is posted on numerous web pages GG Firedancer changes topic to "Class In Session: What is Wicca -- Please join without interrupting." Goodguy well....email me the addreses...I do have a life off the internet ya know Goodguy if I write this stuff down, I just lose it Firedancer waits for everyone's attention onmyown ahem...continue please Dancer Moonlily All Eyes on Dancer, please. Sliver places his attention on FD Goodguy feasts his eyes on FD Firedancer Okay...First, I want to state that the lessons posted were provided by MoonLeaf. Firedancer She is hosting an email Wicca class and has graciously allowed permission for the use of some of her lessons. Firedancer The lesson posted is hers, in it's entirety. Firedancer With that being said, I will now state that I have my own views, opionions, and reference material I will be using tonight, to expand upon the lesson. ocelot [ocelot@clhayward.bcsc.gov.bc.ca] has joined #afterfive Firedancer There are as many definitions of Wicca as their are practitioners. Firedancer Throughout the material given online, it was fairly obvious :) Firedancer There was, however, a mention of The American Witches Council (now obsolete), and a few of their guidelines were published. Firedancer I have posted on my homepage, all 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief, as provided by this organization. Firedancer I will restate those principles tonight, because I feel they are valid, and probably the most precise guidelines for what Wicca, the religion, practices. Goodguy raises his hand with a ? Firedancer I'll say it now, because I'm sure it will be introduced at a later time...I personally believe there is a difference between Wicca the religion, and witchcraft. Firedancer I hope to hear everyone's opinion on this a little later. Firedancer points to Goodguy...yes? Goodguy thank you FD, u said "provided by this organization"...... Goodguy is that the Am. witches council or your own orgaznization or what? Firedancer in reference to the obsolete organization of the American Witches Council...sorry Goodguy thank you,,,,you may continue Firedancer :) Firedancer okay...here are the princinples...there are 13 in all Firedancer 1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm of life forces marked by the phases of the Moon, and the seasonal Quarters, and Cross Quarters. barbararf [pd@12.raleigh-002.nc.dial-access.att.net] has joined #afterfive barbararf [pd@12.raleigh-002.nc.dial-access.att.net] has left #afterfive Firedancer 2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique responsibility toward our environment. We seek to live in harmony with Nature, in ecological balance offering fulfillment of life and consciousness within an evolutionary concept. Firedancer 3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary, it is sometimes called "supernatural", but we see it as lying within that which is naturally potential to all. Firedancer 4. (this one is long...lol) We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity-as masculine and feminine-and that this same Creative Power lies in all pwople, and functions through the interaction of the masculine and the feminine. Firedancer We value neither above the other, knowing each to be supportive of the other. Firedancer We value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life, and as one of the sources of energies used in magickal practice and religious worship. Firedancer 5. We recognize both outer worlds and inner-or psychological-worlds, sometimes known as the Spiritual World, the Collective Unconsciousness, Inner Pleanes, etc...and we see in the inter-action of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal phenomena, and magickal exercises. We neglect neither dimension for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment. Firedancer 6. We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor those who teach, respect those who share their greater knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who have courageously given of themselves in leadership. AncientOne [Eld@p41-38.hftd.dialin.ntplx.com] has joined #afterfive Firedancer 7. We see religion, magick and widom in living as being united in the way one views the world and lives within it-a world view and philosophy of life which we identify as Witchcraft-The Wiccan Way. Firedancer 8. Calling oneself "witch" does not make a witch--but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations. A witch seeks to control the forces within her/himself that makes life possible in order to live wisely and well without harm to others and in harmony with nature. Firedancer (yes, I know that one will have many asking questions...g) Firedancer 9. We belive in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a continuation of evolution and development of consciousness giving meaning to the Universe we know and our personal role within it. Firedancer 10. On only animosity towards Christianity or towards any other religion of philosophy of life is to the extent that its institutions have claims to be "the only way", and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief. SCarrlet [pltwd@bell4-cs-10.dial.bright.net] has joined #afterfive Firedancer 11. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are concerned with our present and our future. SCarrlet [pltwd@bell4-cs-10.dial.bright.net] has left #afterfive Firedancer 12. We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we worship any entity known as "Satan" or the "Devil", as defined by Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be deried only by denial to another. Firedancer 13. We believe that we should seek within Nature that which is contributory to our health and well-being. Firedancer end Doom [Samatha@dialup18.isgroup.net] has quit IRC (Leaving) Goodguy is that it? Firedancer I know this is a lot of information :) This is not exactly an easy topic to discuss in a short period of time...and way too much information to procede without giving people the chance to question along the way...I will open the floor up for questions over this information. `Jen raises her hand Firedancer points to Jen...yes? `Jen 1. can i have your hompage addy, 2. #10 seems ill defined. what does it Say? Sliver is just happy that he remembered to start logging this channel Firedancer CyberWitch Home Page: http://www.mysticflame.com/cyberwitch/ mh [thehendric@hd83-008.hil.compuserve.com] has joined #afterfive rook_ [somebody@w265-18.warwick.net] has joined #afterfive AngelWings raises hand Firedancer #10: in a nutshell...we have no quarell with ANY religion...our only "animosity" or "debate" stems from supression or lack of aknowledgement that we have the right to practice our religion rook_ [somebody@w265-18.warwick.net] has left #afterfive Goodguy has a question Firedancer There are LOTS of debates/arguments where there appears to be a wiccan vs. christianity theme...that is not a philosophy of Wicca Firedancer turns to omo...you wanted to speak? onmyown would offer a comment or two onmyown to perhaps further amplify what has been stated about Article 10.... Firedancer :) then, Angel, then Goodguy...ok? AngelWings lowers her hand and waits her turn onmyown the history of persecution of those who follow our beleifs stretches back over the centuries onmyown in this regard some have acquired a justifiable concern onmyown and that persecution has not ceased in this day and age it might be added onmyown although this topic was covered in the last lesson, it is worth pointing out Firedancer :) true...it tied in nicely onmyown that followers of Wicca do have "any axe to grind" with those who have other beleifs Firedancer For the record, last weeks lesson is published online...for those who may have missed it...we'll give out urls at the end of the class... onmyown minor typo there onmyown we do NOT have an axe to grind with other practioners onmyown of other beliefs onmyown end |\Kurgan\ [imortal9@herrin11.midwest.net] has joined #afterfive Firedancer points to Angel :) Yahmdallah I think you do have a ax to grind since you resent the jewish,christian,moslem belief that THEY are right and everyone else is wrong...but that's been stated Yahmdallah I just think it's worth acknowledging AngelWings okay, ummm AngelWings I thought it might be interesting to address \Kurgan\ personally, i disagree with that as well but i dont fight what simply will never change without them opening their own minds `Jen [~ask_me@U151.LoyalistC.ON.CA] has left #afterfive Firedancer reminds everyone that Angel has the floor :) AngelWings what Wiccans believe is the definition of "witch"? What exactly does witch mean to them Yahmdallah raises hand Firedancer Angel, would you like to start with your interpretation...or are you asking the class in general? AngelWings ummm well, I was kinda asking the class in general, but, the main thing was how witch and witchcraft are defined in Wiccan terms and how they go together? perhaps? Firedancer okay...Yahm...did you want to address this, or did you have another topic? Yahmdallah and, I don't think there is anything wrong with having an ax to grind...something that's opposed to another religion, just be honest Yahmdallah finished Firedancer I'll take that as another topic...which I'll talk about after Angel's question and then Goodguy's questions have been answered, okay? Yahmdallah yup Firedancer Okay...concerning the definition of witch/witchcraft/Wicca ... what are they? are they the same thing? Firedancer I can give you my feelings...and they will not be the same as everyone else in the channel. Firedancer This is the oldest debate going in the Wicca/witch circles since reintroduction of witchcraft to society in the 50's. Firedancer I can speak what I feel is my truth...and hope you each accept that for what is right for me. Firedancer I DO believe the Wicca is a religion...and that a witch does not have to practice Wicca. Yahmdallah from what I've gathered as an "outsider" and thru reading sites on the web and books on celtic history and such....I feel "traditional" witchcraft, which was nearly scorched off the face of the earth in the "burning times" is more honestly based historically, and "wicca" is a guess at what was a celtic religion, tailored for the "new age" Firedancer I belive a witch is something you are...you can learn witchcraft (things that witches and Wiccans do), but still not be a witch. Yahmdallah because celtic religion was an oral tradition, hence, none of it has really survived Goodguy thought Yahm was finished earlier onmyown PLEASE DO NOT INTERRUPT YAHMDALLAH Yahmdallah on that topic, not this one Yahmdallah we can't comment on currrent topics? Yahmdallah sorry Firedancer A witch is someone who does not have to force themselves to connect with nature...they are at one with nature. Goodguy Yahm needs the talking stick lecture Firedancer lol...I thought you didn't like that idea, Goodguy grin Yahmdallah I thought the floor was open to all on the current topic Yahmdallah is it? Firedancer it's okay...everyone can contribute...I'm too long winded :) Goodguy LOL FD...it borders on socialism, but afterall, Yahm is in colorado Goodguy lol SevenStar wishes for Firedancer to finish what she was saying Firedancer okay...just another thought \Kurgan\ well not to interrupt on what appears to the current discussion of the rules of order, ummm i always considered it anyone who practices... not paganism on the whole, but withcraft \Kurgan\ or wicca Firedancer Wicca is a religion that identifies and worships the diety aspects of the Creative Power. Sliver . Firedancer It's a difficult line to define. onmyown would like to comment Firedancer In a way...without offending anyone...I'd like to say you don't have to go to church to be a Christian...and everyone that attends Church is not Christian...that might help some. Firedancer finished ocelot [ocelot@clhayward.bcsc.gov.bc.ca] has left #afterfive Moonlily Comment: I feel a Witch is one thatis at home with both the religeon and the craft, a wiccan is relegeous, and connects, but doesn't necessarily feel at home with the craft, kind of like what Dancer just stated mh raises her hand Moonlily and more like what Dancer stated onmyown comment: in regards to you earlier statement Yahm... onmyown there ARE any number of supposed or perhaps true Traditional witches \Kurgan\ comment would like to add to what he said earlier, that althought to some my definition may sound very simplistic i dont agree with people who call satanists or druids witches, that is what i was trieing to get at in case some people didnt catch that, since ive known many who consider all paganism to be witchcraft onmyown who consider themselves hereditary and/or pre-Gardnerian witches. Yahmdallah yes, that's who I was referring to onmyown in the same vein as Dancers, one who follows Wicca may well consider him or herself a witch onmyown not all witches follow the Wiccan path. sher [rfriaz@200.37.29.12] has joined #afterfive sher hello!!!!!!!!! onmyown end Firedancer does anyone else have a thought on this topic they wish to contribute? mh has a question Yahmdallah yes... Firedancer points to mh :) AngelWings keep in mind, perhaps that someone who calls themselves a witch may not be considered as such by someone else mh what do you mean when you say "The craft?" sher [rfriaz@200.37.29.12] has left #afterfive Goodguy how is wiccan being suppressed in America today? Who is suppressing it? The gov.? The christians, if the christians, what christians, the zealots? Firedancer The craft is generally a terms that is used to refer to the spells and rituals practiced by witches and Wiccans. Firedancer But...going deeper, it refers to the herbal/medicine skills that the village wise woman would use on the people. AngelWings not to be confused with the movie "The Craft" which is a total falsehood \Kurgan\ has a question mh thank you Firedancer Kurgan...pertaining to this topic, or introducing a new one? \Kurgan\ well in keeping with the definition of wicca Firedancer remembers that Goodguy wanted to introduce a topic... Firedancer okay Kurgan :) go ahead Sliver . Yahmdallah raises hand \Kurgan\ well, i ran into someone a few weeks ago who had the opinion that celtic wicca and druidism were the same thing \Kurgan\ ive always been under the impression that they had differant roots and somewhat differant teachings \Kurgan\ i was just sort of wondering if any one else had an opinion on this matter Firedancer okay, Kurgan...do you mind if I address Goodguy's question first? \Kurgan\ not at all Firedancer yours will take a bit of answering :) Firedancer thank you Firedancer Okay...omo, would you like to take that question first :) Need perspectives other than mine. Moonlily For GG: What is the first thought you have when someone says, "What a witch.." Something negative? People in general look toward witches as negative and fear them, so 'they' suppress them. The govt has made steps to clear the air, such as legally defining Wicca as a bonafide relegeon, but the 'ideas' in minds have along way to go onmyown re the current state of persecution, Goodguy, perhaps the most overt attempts have come from the christian right \Kurgan\ to reply to GG's dicussion, ive only seen problems from christians, many other religions have a policy of respect, the only govt problem or arguments ive seen come FROM christian zealots in the gov. onmyown but persecution is reflected by many parts of society Goodguy are you talking of the jerry falwells of the world Firedancer more like the 700 Clubbers of the world :) \Kurgan\ im talking about a lot of people \Kurgan\ heh Firedancer and the moral majority Goodguy but wicca is a rocognized religion...tax exempt and all that Firedancer that's a misconception of some degree onmyown not the least of which is the attitude of "right (not politically speaking) minded persons" onmyown that fail to or have no desire to undrstand, much less tolerate \Kurgan\ i dont see why we get persecuted by the moral society but they let christian tv evangelists go on their way? \Kurgan\ i think omo just said it... no desire to understand Firedancer Goodguy, the government registers and does security checks on everyone who applies for tax exempt status as a witch/pagan. onmyown our beliefs. The act of rumber-stamping us in some way Goodguy but see...u are not alone...Jews are persecuted in this country, hindus, etc.... onmyown is certainly shared by other religious minorities Goodguy this is a country of many beliefs and yes there are ppl who think if you dont believe the way they do you are wrong and should leave..... Moonlily And even 'christian' relegeons that do not fall into the 'right' path Firedancer yes, Goodguy...most non-Christian religions are not "tolerated"...I won't say persecuted, though, by some Chrisitian religions. Goodguy I am not one of those \Kurgan\ well \Kurgan\ the word i think that applies is autocentric Goodguy so you guys are not alone in that regard Goodguy but I also have a question on number 4 I want to ask Goodguy may I ask it now...cuz I have to go play softball pretty soon Firedancer let's answers Kurgan's question...then your next one, okay? Firedancer oh...that's right...I forgot your time limit...go ahead :) \Kurgan\ if its ok go ahead and let goodguy speak thi... thanks \Kurgan\ :) Goodguy thank you lovely FD Goodguy and Kurgan Firedancer wonders if mh needed to jump in before she had to leave, too? mh does not have a time limit this week. Thanks for your concern :) Goodguy call me dumb, but..........what does this mean.... Goodguy We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifesting through polarity-as masculine and feminine Goodguy especially manifesting through polarity Firedancer It means we perceive "God" to be both male and female...not either or. \Kurgan\ was under the impression i have a lot of impressions that polarity refers to the two sides male and female and thus a god can represent either Fog [~tastymors@dialup16.hi-line.net] has left #afterfive Goodguy well whats the big deal in that \Kurgan\ well, that its differant from most religions its important to understand Goodguy and if thats what it means....put it that way Firedancer Many religions do not recognize the Crative Power as anything other than Male. Goodguy has met a few creaticve women in his times Firedancer I thought is was stated quite simply, Goodguy :) Goodguy lol \Kurgan\ christians most of them seem dead set that their god is a white male. from most pagan stand points a god represents both, not just one crane [Crane@195.27.210.29] has joined #afterfive Yahmdallah can I finish a thot? Goodguy so you have one god or 2 Firedancer sets mode: -o Moonlily Firedancer sets mode: +o crane \Kurgan\ one god who represents both the female and male aspects of what that deity represents Firedancer has kicked Moonlily from #afterfive (Firedancer) Yahmdallah also, do the pagan/wiccan god/goddess have a race? Firedancer Yahm...not that I have seen exercised. AngelWings a race? Goodguy my personal belief is God can be whatever you want God to be \Kurgan\ ive always visualised them as quite human, but thats just my perception Yahmdallah to finish a thot: I understand that "wiccans" and "witches" can be one in the same...but I've noticed that one difference that all seem to agree upon is that "witchcraft/witches" are from a traditional historic line, and "wiccans" are within a belief that's an attempt at reviving a lost celtic oral tradiciotn Firedancer Many traditions follow pantheons from other races...but I've never known one to put a racial aspect to the God or Goddess. Moonlily has left IRC crane is now known as moonlily moonlily is on IRC Firedancer Yahm...I don't agree with your last perception. Yahmdallah k, that's just what I've gathered myself from reading AngelWings my understanding that a god/dess is all races, no matter what the religion \Kurgan\ neither do i, i think wicca was more of an atttempt to revive the traditional withcraft \Kurgan\ the celtic oral tradition was bardinsert ism/ic/whatever suffic \Kurgan\ and that in fact evolved from druidism moonlily I believe Bards were story tellers during the time of Druids, but not of that order...I think \Kurgan\ they were related in a way \Kurgan\ ive been reading, can you tell? :) moonlily :) Yahmdallah my point is that wicca is not truly historical...it's a modern interpretation of some old pagan/oral beliefs \Kurgan\ druids were required to learn most ancient tales \Kurgan\ since they didnt write any of it down, it was passed orally onmyown a bit more than storytellers, Bards held a postion of great respect Firedancer Yahm...I can understand where you are going...the distinction between a "New Age" movement and tradition. \Kurgan\ many of these same stories became stories told by other people, and these people were the bards. onmyown but it is a bit more than just oral tradtion \Kurgan\ druidism is, but bardic/ism isnt really Yahmdallah or, even a movement that's a recent development (to avoid being lumped in with "new age") moonlily Yes, they did...and druids did have a writing system, but it was lost \Kurgan\ the celtic oral tradition i think he was referring to would be that aspect of druidism and bardic traditions \Kurgan\ anyways \Kurgan\ yahm, yes i see your point Firedancer My personal perception/theory is that in order to avoid persecution for the use of the term Witch (remember, when Gardner initially began opening up witchcraft in England...they still HUNG witches!) \Kurgan\ it is based on something historical, but it is not identical, if thats basically what your saying, i think youre right... :) Yahmdallah ah, good point Firedancer That the term wicca (latin for wise craft) was utilized in order to avoid prosecution/persecution. Yahmdallah see, to parallel Christain "development" the current southern baptists are a recent type of Chrisitanity...not based on tradition or scripture at all really...they are a recent "development"...and God save us all from them... Firedancer When the order moved to America...where we have the right to practice Freedom of Religion...it evolved into a religion, again to avoid perseuction/prosecution. Firedancer ANY religion that is new will be questioned, but even OLD religions have current antagonist...i.e. Jehovah's Witnesses cannot practice openly in Austria, Belgium and other European countries. Yahmdallah wow, din't know that Firedancer You don't EVEN want to know how the Germans treat the Scientologist, then! Yahmdallah they jail them...right? onmyown surely you are familiar with the persecution of the Anabaptists Yahm? Yahmdallah nope Firedancer worse...they register them and they cannot go into any political or high security jobs...they are considered subversive threats to the government! _Lisa_ [lisa@srq27.netline.net] has quit IRC (Write error to _Lisa_[srq27.netline.net], closing link) _Lisa_ has left IRC onmyown well we digress.... moonlily They honestly beleive they are a threat to democracy as we know it \Kurgan\ hm Firedancer okay...it's true, we are a little side-tracked, but it does answer some of the questions presented earlier... \Kurgan\ well AngelWings ....herding cats! Firedancer now...Kurgan has been waiting patiently for an answer to his questions \Kurgan\ side tracking is to be expected \Kurgan\ yes i have... :) SevenStar raises his hand Firedancer yes, SevenStar? SevenStar just wants to make sure at some point in time I can post what Stardancer wrote with the home work, or she will skin me, lol Firedancer rotflol! Firedancer after Kurgan's question...and then everyone can contribute their homework, okay? mh :) SevenStar yes AngelWings homework? I didn't see any homework! moonlily :) Firedancer lol...was to write what wicca meant to YOU! SevenStar ok, Kurgan has the floor :-) Firedancer okay, Kurgan, I honestly cannot compare druidism and celtic beliefs...I have not studied either. Firedancer FireWolf can offer some thoughts...but not enough to expand upon your question. onmyown would comment \Kurgan\ well, any one here who has studied both? id really like another opinion \Kurgan\ omo, please do onmyown although the Druid society was (is?) Celtic onmyown Celtic society stretched far beyond the British Isles \Kurgan\ yes Firedancer yep :) onmyown and embraced other belief systems than strictly Druidic ones \Kurgan\ yes onmyown Druidic society was as much a Patriarchial political structure onmyown as a belief structure \Kurgan\ yes, druids held office, judges leaders healers diviners mages and so on... onmyown the Celtic societies in Basque, Teutonic, and other central and eastern European areas onmyown had and perhaps still have in some regions Firedancer Even Germanic :) \Kurgan\ mm-hmm onmyown i use the generic term Teutonic to encompass a larger region Dancer s \Kurgan\ heh Firedancer lol \Kurgan\ knows nothing of the Teutons onmyown had and still have distinctly unique sets of beliefs, that are quite non-Drudic. moonlily Actually, I believe the the Germans were fierce enemies of the celts, but they had thier own druids of sorts?? onmyown not sure if helps to make anything more clear Kurgan \Kurgan\ well Firedancer Moon...there were Celtic colonies in Germany... \Kurgan\ to reiterate my question for clarification: would celtic wiccan and druidism beable to be terms used interchangably? onmyown distnctly not imho \Kurgan\ my thoughts exactly Firedancer I don't think they would either...simply from what little I do understand of the two beleif systems. \Kurgan\ i understand that they have differant roots and slightly varieing beliefs \Kurgan\ actually \Kurgan\ this person was more under the impression that wiccan was the whole of paganism Firedancer the Druids were quite vicious in their time, Kurgan :) \Kurgan\ thus, celtic wicca was druidism because they were both celtic magick \Kurgan\ heh _Lisa_ is on IRC onmyown for that matter Kurgan, "modern" Druidism bears little more than a shadow of what small amount is known about historic Druidism _Lisa_ [lisa@srq13.netline.net] has joined #afterfive ChanServ sets mode: +o _Lisa_ \Kurgan\ yes _Lisa_ sets mode: -o _Lisa_ \Kurgan\ has read quite a bit about how so many religions passing through the celtic nations caused quite a bit of confusion moonlily The different celtic tribes had many different belief systems, but the 'druids' intertaught, and were accepted through out the different tribes \Kurgan\ yes Firedancer okay...I think it's time to move on? \Kurgan\ yeah \Kurgan\ ive had my question answered Firedancer I'm really glad everyone could stay in for the entire class this evening...it's been long :) \Kurgan\ :) Firedancer I'd like to hear everyone's response to the written portion of "what is wicca to you" starting with SevenStar :) SevenStar I have always felt different than the 'norm' in things I believe and now it seems that the religion Wicca fits closest to my beliefs. SevenStar Although I never really was into mythology, I have always felt a female and male presence in the deity. I used to be so shocked to hear that there was just a man god that would one day judge my soul, MAKE me either go to heaven or hell and that would be that. I always thought, "Why can't I just go where I want? Let my spirit be free to come back and try it again or just be free to help guide others or whatever!" Needless to say, my southern ba SevenStar whenever I said such things. So I just learned, at a very young age, to keep most of my opinions to myself. SevenStar The supernatural and candle magick have always been with me and preserving the earth and all its creatures is a must, and no one can tell me that animals do NOT have souls; and I encouraged growth from my Dad's corn fields way before we were told that talking to our plants helped with their growth. SevenStar Anyway, to me, wicca is a nature loving, free form style of religion that lets us be ourselves and opens our eyes to see what some others will never see. SevenStar sorry for the scroll, lol AncientOne mumbles sure you are Seven g Firedancer grin Firedancer very nicely said, SevenStar :) SevenStar skin is saved now, hehehe SevenStar is now known as SevenEagle SevenEagle is on IRC AngelWings heheheh will be nice to see you with skin Seven =) Firedancer anyone else have a input? AngelWings without it, I think your looks might be compromised =) Firedancer wonders how many dunce caps she needs to find for those who didn't do their homework? Yahmdallah I do... \Kurgan\ hides under the table cause he didnt even know of the homework \Kurgan\ ;( AngelWings I would like to say that there was a reason why I didn't do that Firedancer lol! Goodguy needs a dunce cap \Kurgan\ angel give us a reason, then find your own table :) AngelWings however, Yahm had something he wanted to say Goodguy did nt know there was homework too moonlily Good night everyone, I need to run away...kids moonlily BB AngelWings Yahm, you wanted to say something? moonlily [Crane@195.27.210.29] has quit IRC (Leaving) moonlily has left IRC AngelWings nite moonlily Yahmdallah yes Goodguy whats the question Yahmdallah we are supposed to give our definitions of wicca, or what it means to us Goodguy ok Goodguy thanks Firedancer thank you Yahm :) Yahmdallah so...can I? Firedancer yes you may \Kurgan\ i dont see why not personally AngelWings please do \Kurgan\ :) Yahmdallah but...I want to say first this is not a disparagement, or "putting down" of wicca...k? Yahmdallah wicca, to me, as a Christian, is PARTIALLY a reaction against the patriarcal power plays and sanctioned hatred found in some parts of jewish/christian/moslem beliefs...a desire to have the individual be worthy on his or her own, and not being defined via a relationship to God...but this is just from my perspective as a Christian . . . not meant to be a "personal definition of wicca" …. So don't flame me, onmyown \Kurgan\ well \Kurgan\ in reply, i left christianity for a few reasons \Kurgan\ there were too many contradictions \Kurgan\ and they were trieing to control me too much \Kurgan\ it was "dress this way, act this way, talk this way, and youll be fine" \Kurgan\ i dont agree with that at all, your own personal faith is what counts Yahmdallah k \Kurgan\ now as for contradictions lets consider heaven and hell Goodguy Pentecostal, Kurgan? \Kurgan\ hell, is supposed to be a punishment Goodguy Antioch perhaps \Kurgan\ i tried at least a dozen denominations, none worked \Kurgan\ but a punishment is to teach you a lesson right? \Kurgan\ how do you learn a lesson if you never get out to prove what you learned? \Kurgan\ finished Yahmdallah I feel, upon second viewing, I need to apologize to singling out onmyown....I'm sorry...it was inappropriate....won't happen again here... Yahmdallah =) AngelWings good point Kurgan \Kurgan\ thats just one of dozens i noticed \Kurgan\ but i just really didnt like being controlled, and i cant work with being part of a religion that fights among itself non stop SevenEagle [7eagle@wisc1-a03.sc.tds.net] has quit IRC (Read error to SevenEagle[wisc1-a03.sc.tds.net]: Connection reset by peer) AngelWings you sound just like me Kurgan, I went through all that questioning myself \Kurgan\ down the street, theres a seventh day advenist church \Kurgan\ theres a big billboard SevenEagle [7eagle@wisc1-a03.sc.tds.net] has joined #afterfive ChanServ sets mode: +o SevenEagle \Kurgan\ and it says "find out whos REALLY behind the new world order" \Kurgan\ it has evil eyes behind a globe Firedancer I can see how one would walk away with the perception that Goddess is stressed more than God, and therefore come to the conclusion that it evolved as a means to resist the patriarchal religions. \Kurgan\ i went in one day just to listen since i knew the preacher... surprise! they were blaming catholics! Firedancer In fact, I've often felt that the spread of Wicca as a religion moved so quickly because of the women's movement of the moment. \Kurgan\ thats possible fire Goodguy Beats me what Wicca is!!!!!! I just like you guys, especially FireDancer, because she healed my injured wrist. \Kurgan\ then theres the catholic/protestant thing in northern island... on second thought it appears to be everyone is fighting the catholics Firedancer Goodguy...I was not the only one sending you energy that night :) \Kurgan\ scratches his head a little and gets back to current discussion Goodguy I believe you determine your fate more than any God or religion does... \Kurgan\ exactly Goodguy one can believe whatever they want, make no difference to me \Kurgan\ christianity tried to tell me that i had to do what they say or i go to hell. AngelWings hmmm Satan, my hubby for those who don't know, says that religion is a cop out for those who do not wish to face responsibility for their own actions \Kurgan\ i dont go for that... i just cant understand why any god who intends on doing good and loves everyone would put someone into eternal flame and punishmenyt \Kurgan\ angel, i for a brief time believed that, right after i left christianity Goodguy Kurgan....my brother is a born again in the pentecostal church.....he tried to tell me that if I listen to rock n roll I will go to hell....so told him he was nuts...then he said if I watch tv I wil go to hell and stated talking about the rapture and all that crap..... AngelWings that if something bad happens, instead of looking at their own actions, and perhaps trying to change that, that they blame it on God Goodguy so I kicked him outta my house...... \Kurgan\ then i started to learn more about paganism... and found it worked for me... \Kurgan\ oh yeah i used to go to a church like that \Kurgan\ they said television, those people kissing werent really married! i was sinning vicariously through them! \Kurgan\ left after the first hour... onmyown well, perhaps this has become more of what think Wicca is not s AngelWings yes, I was just thinking that omo!! \Kurgan\ seriously... when i was a christian i was on a merry go round of denominations, spent years like that \Kurgan\ heheh \Kurgan\ that was starting to hit me too Goodguy my brother wraps himself around religion.....thats his business and I could care less, but don't try to make me feel as if I dont do what he says I will wind up in hell, cuz frankly I dont give a damn mh raises her hand Firedancer okay: another Firedancer quote g Firedancer the difference between religion and sprituality = eg Firedancer ego \Kurgan\ heh AngelWings mh? Firedancer yes, mh? \Kurgan\ fire, whatever happened to your copy of my notdevil.txt? mh I would like to say what wicca means to me :) \Kurgan\ please do mh :) Firedancer :) go for it! mh At this point, I am searching. I have had some upheavals in my life over the past year. mh I need some kind of healing force in my life. I am hoping that Wicca might be that. mh I need to develop a spiritual life. mh That is what will help me heal, I hope. :) mh And I like the exercises of becoming aware of my perceptions. mh I realize how disconnected I feel right now. mh I feel that I must develop my spirituality from within. And wicca is very encouraging of that mh also, it seems to allow for individual differences mh that is attractive to me. And it recognizes the female spirit. \Kurgan\ yeah mh I don't feel left out with wicca. mh ~fin~ mh (means ~done~) mh :) \Kurgan\ i always felt connected with nature onmyown very nicely put mh! \Kurgan\ thats why i never liked christianity... it emphasizes your personal self, not how your personal self treats everything else... especially nature AngelWings well, I must be off now! AngelWings happy discussing! \Kurgan\ mp angel Firedancer MP AngelWings :) AngelWings spreads her wings, straightens her halo, and glides away, leaving only warm memories behind mh thanks omo :) AngelWings [~Angelresp@170-206-160.ipt.aol.com] has quit IRC (Read error to AngelWings[170-206-160.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer) AngelWings has left IRC SevenEagle any more comments? or is class over? Firedancer anyone else care to contribute to the thought of what wicca means to them? \Kurgan\ is contributed out Firedancer lol... Firedancer okay... Firedancer wants to thank EVERYONE for their participation. SevenEagle: just felt it was ready to be wrapped up, lol \Kurgan\ :) Firedancer It's been a wonderful discussion, and very insightful :) mh thank you everyone mh Thanks to all the operators and participants mh It's been *my* pleasure :) Goodguy thanks FD for the enilightening lesson Firedancer omo, would you please repost the url's for where people can find the next lesson posted? onmyown 4 PLEASE NOTE: SevenEagle as well as mine mn onmyown http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/7043/class.html YVS [DLFK@winserve.seker.es] has joined #afterfive onmyown and onmyown http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8015 \Kurgan\ brb onmyown contain the past and current Lessons Goodguy btw mh......if you want to heal......do it yourself. dont look for others onmyown as well as Logs of each as they become available Firedancer Yes...we post the lesson for next week on Thursdays :) YVS [DLFK@winserve.seker.es] has left #afterfive Goodguy cuz if you do mh...you will lose your individuality Goodguy and that is not good onmyown at QuietWater's request, Lesson Three has been posted today onmyown today's Log will be posted within 24 hours Firedancer Class dismissed...you are all welcome to join us in #CyberWitch for more discussion of the Wiccan/Pagan nature if you desire.*** Log file closed: 7/30/97 4:05:14 PM |