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*** Log file opened: 8/31/97 12:00:58
QuietWaters - Well...might as well get started QuietWaters - An it harm none, do what you will QuietWaters - That is today's lesson. QuietWaters - For those of you who may not have read the lesson in advance, here's a brief look at it: QuietWaters - From A Witches' s Bible by Janet and Stewart Farrar: QuietWaters - "If you deliberately set out to develop your psychic abilities you are awakening a faculty by which you can influence other people, with or without their knowledge; a faculty by which you can obtain information in ways that they do not expect or allow for; a faculty by which you can either enhance their life-energy or sap it. By which you can help them or harm them. QuietWaters - Obviously, you are taking a great responsibility on yourself and this responsibility calls for a set of willingly accepted rules....All these rules are summed up in the phrase: 'An it harm none.' QuietWaters - Does anyone have any comments or questions about this lesson? Ravendancer - not I SevenEagle will say something Stardancer - tis a good rule and one easily lived with QuietWaters - ok Eagle SevenEagle - there is a need for a rule such as this.... SevenEagle - what happens in the spirit world, or the breaking of the rules, sometimes can take along time to catch up with someone SevenEagle - or it can be very quick, usually I see that people get away with harming for some time Brandy nods and is back by the way Ravendancer - wb B QuietWaters - It does seem to catch up eventually. Ravendancer - k I lied I do have a comment QuietWaters - ok Ravendancer Ravendancer - while there are a lot of karmic issues brought up here, the Rede denies the fact that sometimes harm is necessary for the Highest good of all concerned. Ravendancer - for instance, a drug addict will feel a lot of pain before s/he's cured. Ravendancer - does this bring on bad karma for the one who broke her/him? Ravendancer steps off the soapbox Stardancer - I think this one simple rule does almost everything in separating us from what most people refer to as 'witchcraft', no harm, no darkness, no evil associated Brandy has a comment to that mh raises her hand QuietWaters - It doesn't mean that you leave yourself open to attack or that harm isn't necessary. QuietWaters - Go ahead Brandy Brandy - ok, in your question you brought up two points RD Brandy - one the individual was harming themselves QuietWaters - MM childlike. We're having a class now. You're welcome to join us. Brandy - two by helping them you inadvertently would harm them in the beginning Brandy - I say this SevenEagle thinks harm none doesn't really mean pain, it means to have negative spiritual effect on them Brandy - if the individual truly wishes the help in the first place the small harm done outweighs the loss of their life which would occur in the long run. Also it is only through pain sometimes that we as individuals can grow Brandy - this does not mean we should break the rede Ravendancer - agreed Brandy Ravendancer - simply bend it....? QuietWaters - mh...you had a comment? Brandy - we should in all things weigh our own consciousness against the consequences of our actions Brandy - for every action there is a reaction mh - yes, when Brandy is done Brandy - and I believe the God/dess know what we truly have in our hearts Brandy is now finished mh - thanks mh - yes, I feel that pain is very useful as a signal and I have seen that in life mh - I think the judgment is - should *we* intentionally inflict pain Brandy - never mh - if someone is in danger due to an illness and needs to be hospitalized but perceives hospitalization as the worst kind of pain, should we still have them hospitalized? mh - Or in the case of parents whose children are acting out in addiction Ravendancer - ooo good question Brandy - yes Brandy - a very good question mh - by not giving into their requests for money, shelter, etc, in the short run, they are 'harming them' mh - but there is a long term goal involved mh - how does Wicca handle that? mh - fin - Ravendancer - well put mh - I'd be interested in hearing from all those who wish to respond Stardancer would respond QuietWaters - Go ahead, Star. Stardancer - if we make sure that there is nothing in our own lives that can be returned back to us, by doing something like mh is talking about.... Stardancer - we can in good conscience do what is right in each circumstance to help out... Stardancer - we need to be sure to ask for guidance and are SURE of what we are doing. mh - who do we ask? Stardancer - God/dess, guides Brandy has a comment also Stardancer - ourselves Stardancer - go ahead Brandy Brandy - ok we have to remember that each and every situation is unique onto itself Brandy - this means that we must always strive to do what we feel or are lead to do but we must also always keep mind the rede Stardancer - agree Ravendancer - agreed Brandy - sometimes trying to follow what you are lead to do may seem to be in violation of the rede Brandy - but in the long run if you do what you are lead to do after meditating on it and following the direction you are lead to go it turns out to be the best Brandy - we may not see the results or understand the long run of things mh has another comment Brandy - that is why we should seek out our guides the God/dess and meditate when faced with such a situation Brandy - to be sure we do what is right not what we think is right Brandy - I hope that helped Stardancer - I agree, and to make sure that we have nothing that the 3 fold law can come back to us on mh - well, what if we have not yet developed a communication with god/ess and guides? mh - The decisions still need to be made in the meantime SevenEagle - do what is in your heart Brandy nods having had the consequences of breaking the rede come on her before Brandy - ok mh Brandy - if you can do something and not feel guilt or indecision about it Brandy - that is probably the best action Brandy doesn't like the way she said that but hopes you understand what she means Stardancer knows mh - sorry to be the spoiler Stardancer - want a for instance? mh - but many times, decisions have to be made in haste mh - and are not 100% mh - correct Stardancer - yes and we live with what happens Stardancer - and learn :) Brandy - yep Stardancer - makes us more aware next time Ravendancer - agreed Star Brandy - I would like to hear star's for instance mh - let's hope there's not a next time :) Stardancer - ok...... Stardancer - my daughters boyfriend is in jail at the moment, been there since end of June.... Stardancer - she asked me to help put him there, because at the time she was mad at him.... Stardancer - her reasons were not the best, but he was hiding from a warrant..... Stardancer - I thought hard about it and decided to help her, not for her reasons, but because he had his 'debt to pay' Stardancer - I also thought that he could certainly use the time... Stardancer - to try to get himself straightened out.... Stardancer - now, I had nothing to do with the charges brought against him.... Stardancer - and I saw no reason he couldn't pay by being in jail for what he had done.... Stardancer - but, he told her to remind me of the 3 fold law.... Stardancer - my conscience is clear because I have no charges of such against me. Stardancer - It still was a hard thing to do. Stardancer - and they are working out their problems. Brandy listens Stardancer - any comments? what would you have done keeping in mind the rede? SevenEagle - and will probably be married mh - I see a conflict mh - there were two needs there Brandy - actually I see four needs Stardancer - what, mh? mh - one for 'paying a debt' and the other for straightening himself out Ravendancer - by being the executor of karma, do you bring bad karma or good karma back to you? mh - Jail is obviously not the best place to get one's act together mh - and I'm not clear if it's the best place for retribution either Stardancer - for sure mh mh - were there other options at the time? Stardancer - no, he was being hunted by the law Stardancer - we just told them where he could be found mh - he had no desire to 'rehabilitate' himself? Brandy - I on the other hand agree with her decision SevenEagle - let him stay on his destructive path, hiding from the law, and still doing more wrong to get away from his actions he already had taken Stardancer - he wanted to but was scared mh - I can't agree or disagree until i have more information mh - so if he was still on the destructive path, then he had to be stopped SevenEagle - agreed Stardancer - better in jail than dead in the streets childlike - question mh - I'm sure you made the best decision under the circumstances Stardancer - ok childlike SevenEagle - yes childlike? mh - with limited time Stardancer - I tried childlike - stardancer , so the decision to turn him in was made with love/compassion/ and a desire to help? childlike - in the long run Stardancer - on my part, but not my daughters at the time Stardancer - she has to live with her own decision childlike - yes childlike - thankyou Stardancer - and he has 'forgiven' her Stardancer - one part I left out.... that helped me in MY decision.... Stardancer - he was given a chance by a judge to not go to jail and make something of himself.... Stardancer - and he still chose to lie and not do what he was asked. Ravendancer - again, by being the executor of karma, do you bring bad karma or good karma back to you? Stardancer - I had no remorse in my decision. Brandy - that depends RD Stardancer - yep depends childlike - how so Ravendancer - on...? Stardancer - should something awful happen to him in jail, I will feel terrible Brandy - how you execute the karma and for what reason SevenEagle - in the sense that this was a clearing of depths and putting on a better path, good karma would follow Brandy - I have a for instance if you wish to hear it childlike - please Stardancer - ok Brandy QuietWaters - ok Brandy Brandy - ok I did not always follow the rede Brandy - let me state that now Stardancer - hmmmmm Brandy - I was in the service and was confronted by a roommate who was destroying my stuff Brandy - now I could have gone to the squad leader and asked to be moved to a different room Brandy - that would have been in keeping with the rede Brandy - however since I at the time did not follow it I did this instead Brandy - I hexed her Stardancer - uh oh Ravendancer - ouch Brandy - she ended up in the psychiatric ward after attempting to commit suicide Stardancer - goodness Brandy - now childlike - :o( Brandy - lets remember the that to forget the law is to bring things back on you 3 fold Stardancer - yep Brandy - four months later I ended up in a coma for 3 days Brandy - reason: someone came up and hit me from behind Brandy - because I had pissed them off Brandy - I lost all my money and had a hard time for months after that Stardancer - and what do you think of all of this now, Brandy? Brandy - I think I was an idiot Brandy - but enough said Brandy - at the time I was after one thing and one thing only Brandy - power Brandy - but you must learn how to temper power with compassion or it means nothing Stardancer - we learn many things the hard way Stardancer - AGREE Stardancer - :) QuietWaters - agree Ravendancer - agreed to both Brandy - and Love is the greatest power there is Stardancer - so true QuietWaters - Did anyone answer the questions included with the lesson? Brandy - that is my instance of how executing bad karma brings bad karma back to you Stardancer - I did QW mh - I did Brandy - I just read it QuietWaters - Would you like to start, Star? Stardancer - The Law of the Power states "the power shall not be used to bring harm" Stardancer - oh and to answer the first question.... Stardancer - the rede means, to me, that whatever I do, in ritual, everyday life I am free to do as I please as long as it harms none, myself or any other creature Stardancer - human or not QuietWaters - :) QuietWaters - mh.. mh - ok, let me copy :) QuietWaters - k mh - It appears to me that one is able to tap a large source of power when they start mh - accessing the wiccan practice. The rede seems to caution us to use the power mh - for good and not to harm anyone. Stardancer - :) QuietWaters - I agree with you both. :) My answer would just be redundant. Would anyone else like to answer? Brandy - ok Brandy - the rede to me means exactly what it says. As long as I do what I want but do not harm anyone by doing such then that is ok. However in the execution of any gift/power I must weigh everything in detail to be sure I do not break the rede Stardancer - :) QuietWaters - :) Ravendancer - and life becomes very complicated QuietWaters - Second question. Why is the rede important to those practicing the Craft? And how does it apply to life in general? QuietWaters - I think we've seen how it applies to life in general with the examples given in today's discussion. Ravendancer - agreed Quiet Brandy nods Stardancer - I truly think the Rede makes us stop and think about our actions more than any other set of commandments, it makes us mindful of how and why we ask for something. QuietWaters - I agree mh - It is important to make sure that one does not abuse power that one accesses. mh - That is also important in daily life too. mh - Too bad more politicians aren't wiccan! QuietWaters - lol! Ravendancer - LOL childlike - hehe QuietWaters - How true... Stardancer - hahaha Brandy - I think the rede is important to the craft because without it we would all do what we wanted with no thought of how it effected others and by doing so harm ourselves in the process Stardancer - yep QuietWaters - Yes.. Stardancer - like shooting up a prayer 'please help me get out of debt',..... Stardancer - then we could lose a loved one that we might happen to be beneficiary of... Ravendancer - ack Brandy nods Stardancer - their policy and how terrible we would feel. QuietWaters - yup Brandy - you get my thoughts exactly star Stardancer - have to really be careful Stardancer - :) Stardancer read The Monkeys Paw years ago :) Ravendancer - :) mh - :) QuietWaters - The next question had an example...working a love spell. Anyone want to answer that? Brandy has to read that QuietWaters - Me too, Star. Ravendancer - I will QuietWaters - ok Ravendancer Stardancer would not do a love spell with out permission and lots, lots of detail. Ravendancer - I would not cast the spell...rather, first I would try to bring them together through mundane means...a meeting, or something. mh - I think it would because we don't know whether or not this could result in harm mh - to our friends or friendship. Ravendancer - that way they have the chance to get to like each other naturally Ravendancer - and if they don't like each other, then no harm's done, they can simply move on Brandy - MY answer: a definitive NO, it could inadvertently harm both of the friends in the long run and if they are meant to be together then that will show in time Stardancer - I read the story of someone doing a love spell asking for a certain man to fall in love with them and love only them...this did happen but with great complications...he was jealous and abusive if she looked at anyone else Stardancer - he loved only her and wanted to smother her QuietWaters - Another example of "be careful what you wish for"...hehehe. Stardancer - for sure! Brandy - I personally think all love spells should be destroyed Ravendancer - and as in the example given in the movie The Craft... Brandy - but that is my opinion Ravendancer - where the love spell she cast ended up with the subject trying to rape her, and then finally dying Stardancer - yep QuietWaters - Did anyone do the exercise? It's rather simple...but has a good point to it. Stardancer - maybe the rede should be "An it harm none, being very careful, do what you will" Stardancer - :) Stardancer - I did QuietWaters - lol, Star Brandy - heheh star Stardancer - hahahah mh - :) Ravendancer - hehehe QuietWaters - What did you think, Star? Stardancer - I felt that as the stone I was drowning :) Stardancer - but I understand the 'ripple' effect everything has Ravendancer - also noting, of course, that...... QuietWaters - hehehe...you should have picked a stone that wanted to go for a swim. :) Lionhawk - Hello all. Ravendancer - as the ripple reached the boundaries of the pool, it began to bounce back...... ;) Ravendancer - mm Lion QuietWaters - Hi Lionhawk Stardancer - we may think that we harm none but actions always have reactions Stardancer - ahhhh good point Ravendancer mh - A quote from Albert Schweitzer came to mind: mh - Not one of us knows what effect his life produces, and what he gives mh - to others; that is hidden from us and must remain so, though we are mh - often allowed to see some little fraction of it, so that we may not mh - lose courage. The way in which power works is a mystery. mh - Albert Schweitzer (1875-1965) QuietWaters - :) Stardancer - very true Ravendancer - agreed Brandy nods Stardancer - you never know when someone is watching you... Stardancer - trying to be like you. QuietWaters - I think that's a good note to wrap this up on. Thanks for participating. Some of these topics would be good to carry over into cyberwitch. :) Stardancer - What do you want them to see???? QuietWaters - Good point, Star :) Stardancer - thank you QW, I just love these lessons :) mh - excellent lesson, QW SevenEagle - thank you QW mh - you did a great job! QuietWaters - The next one is already posted. Brandy - great job QW *** Log file closed: 8/31/97 13:07:47 |